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December 19, 2008

EVERYTHING I HAVE TO SAY ABOUT RICK WARREN

AS I WROTE on the Twitter feed, I have spent many mournful hours turning over the Rick Warren conundrum in my brain, and it all adds up to this: what makes Rick Warren a “moderate?”

HIS “FRIENDS” goatee?

HIS HAWAIIAN shirt?

THE FACT that he spoke at TED?

SOME have argued that it is his commitment to good works: his anti-hunger and anti-poverty initiatives. His work with AIDS and HIV patients. (Though some may call this the basic requirement of being a “Christian” in the first place).

SOME have argued as well that it is his willingness to reach out to those who do not agree with him. (Also known as “conversion”)

THAT IS ALL FINE. I do not wish to silence Warren. I am glad of his good works, and I respect the inspiration and comfort his congregants take from his example.

I ALSO SUSPECT he is a very nice person to spend time with. While there’s clearly some politicking going on, my instinct is that Obama invited Warren because he likes him… because he appreciated Warren for inviting him to Saddleback, and wants to return the favor.

EVEN IF YOU ARE GAY, or had had an abortion, or believed in evolution, I bet Rick Warren would be nice to you. He probably wouldn’t call you a sinner to your face, or suggest that your loving relationship is at best immature, at worst akin to pedophilia.

(OR YOU KNOW WHAT? Maybe he would say it to your face. Maybe his convictions are that strong. And while I think those convictions are demonstrably wrong and logically absurd–and not particularly “moderate”–I recognize his right to them.)

WHICH IS TO SAY: I would shake his hand. If I met him, I’d try to find some common ground, or at least keep the dinner party civil until dessert. I think there are lots of ways for Obama to do the same in his presidency.

BUT AS SOMEONE CLEVER on Twitter pointed out, I still wouldn’t invite him to sing at my wedding.

WHAT’S MORE: this not solely a question of being inclusive of different viewpoints. If Warren were merely a pro-life creationist, I would not be so bothered. It’s the question that Obama and Warren agree on that really troubles me.

BOTH WARREN AND OBAMA believe in a fallacy: that one can support equal rights for “everybody” (Warren) and for gay folks specifically (Obama), and yet not support a gay person having the same access as a straight person to the governmental special status known as “marriage.”

I KNOW HOW TEMPTING this fallacy can be: I am ashamed to admit that I half-fell for it myself until Massachusetts proved that the world would not end, and the semantic difference between “domestic partnerships” and “marriage” was so meaningless as to be offensive. I was wrong, I am sorry.

I HAVE CONFIDENCE that, in no short order, Prop 8 will be repealed, and the gay marriage debate will look as absurd at the miscegenation debates of the 20th century do now. I have confidence this will happen not because it is merely right, or because the electorate will suddenly love gayness, but because opposition to gay marriage has no logical foundation in a civil society that is premised on equality.

(CHURCHES can go ahead and ban it all they like. They have their own charters, and no obligation to logic.)

THOSE OF US, however, who foolishly refused to take Obama at his word when he told us he didn’t support gay marriage OVER AND OVER AGAIN must now take him at his deed. He really, really doesn’t want gays to get married. SRSLY.

LOOK: my gut tells me that Obama likes and respects gay people and wants them to thrive in this country. I think he is tolerant by nature, as his patience with Wright and his embrace of Warren shows.

BUT AFTER MCCLURKIN and now Warren, it is hard not to conclude that Barack Obama is somewhat tone deaf when it comes to gay issues. And at this point, if he is interested in convincing us otherwise (and I’m not presuming he is), it will take more than a few words or a second pastor or some other symbolic gesture. It will take deeds.*

That is all.

*DID YOU NOTICE I was paraphrasing the tag line to “Megaforce” here. NO ONE QUESTIONED THEIR “LIFESTYLES:”

 
Posted by hodg-man @ 12:36 pm | Comments (2,594)
Filed under: Uncategorized

  1. I am *so* disappointed in Obama. “Change [I] can believe in” made me think we’d be moving AWAY from an evangelical nightmare toward a more progressive country. Thus far, I’m feeling nothing more than hoodwinked.

    I am so grateful there are witty, pithy folks like you out there talking about it.

    Comment by Lynne — December 19, 2008 @ 12:47 pm

  2. Another tour de force! I tip my hat to you for this!

    And remember, H-Man -

    Good guys always win, even in the aughties.

    Tom.

    Comment by Tom. — December 19, 2008 @ 12:47 pm

  3. I think that you’ve stated this better than anyone I’ve heard yet. I was on the fence about this. But I think that what you’re saying makes sense; I’m not on the fence anymore. Warren should not be offering the inaugural blessing.

    Comment by Jess A. — December 19, 2008 @ 12:59 pm

  4. John, thanks for posting this. I could not agree with you more. I was angry when Obama AND Biden both stopped short of saying that they supported gay marriage. Even if they do, which I thought was so but am now, like you, beginning to doubt, it is a shame they feel it necessary to hide this fact.

    I am all for inclusiveness, but must we include un-inclusiveness? I am tolerant, but must I tolerate intolerance? I recognize the right of anyone to believe whatever crazy shit their church tells them to, but I don’t think it should have anything to do with government or public policy, and I’m pretty sure Thomas Jefferson would have my back on this.

    -A

    Comment by Aaron — December 19, 2008 @ 1:01 pm

  5. Hear, hear!

    If there is a silver lining here it’s that this odd choice helps keep alive discussion of issues such as Proposition 8 that are so important to all of us (whatever position we may have taken).

    On a side note – I enjoy seeing you extend your “Areas of Expertise” to the real world. If you’re not careful though you may mess around and become a role model. Then you’ll be obligated to leak sex videos or shoot yourself in the leg in Midtown. This *is* how that starts.

    Comment by Trelvix — December 19, 2008 @ 1:14 pm

  6. That is all indeed… a more definitive take I have yet to see. Well said.

    Comment by Dave T. Game — December 19, 2008 @ 1:21 pm

  7. I get very frustrated by people who think Obama is somehow “betraying” them, or who act as if Warren giving the invocation at the inauguration is somehow ensuring that Warren’s social views are Obama’s. The thing that everyone seems to be forgetting is that Warren is only one of the two pastors officiating at the inauguration.

    The pastor giving the benediction is Reverend Joseph Lowery: a man whose support for gay marriage and civil rights in general is unprecedented and steadfast. He is a man so firmly progressive that he would drive the conservative right into fits of apoplexy if he were even in the same room as Bush – and in fact, he did exactly that, at Coretta Scott King’s funeral. He is, in so many ways, the polar opposite of Warren.

    And yet, everyone ignores Lowery’s presence there, and acts as if Warren is the only one attending. People who should know better are getting whipped into a fury because Obama dares to have representatives from both sides of the spectrum at the beginning of a presidency where he promised to govern for all of America’s citizens.

    Diplomacy means interacting with people we find distasteful and trying to convince them to change, not shutting them out and trying to pretend they aren’t real. We’ve had eight years of a president who ignored people he didn’t agree with, and we’ve fought like crazy to change that. Are we really going to throw a tantrum when we finally get the change we want?

    Comment by Fred Z. — December 19, 2008 @ 1:33 pm

  8. OMG-I don’t I can forgive you for reminding me of “MegaForce”!

    Comment by Blake Himsl Hunter — December 19, 2008 @ 1:59 pm

  9. I don’t think anyone here disagrees that Obama should be inclusive of the Warrens in this country, and in the world, Fred Z. But as Hodgman pointed out, there is a difference between having an open dialogue with an anti-gay preacher, and having said preacher come before a group of people who supported your campaign while their own rights were trampled by that preacher’s efforts. The inauguration isn’t a debate or even a dinner. In many ways, it’s a thank-you. And Obama, whatever his viewpoints on marriage, should have been smarter about how to thank his hurting gay supporters.

    Comment by Zack — December 19, 2008 @ 2:08 pm

  10. I agree that opposition to gay marriage is wrong.

    But it is certainly not “demonstrably” wrong or “logically absurd.” It is, at best, inconsistent with other values people who oppose it purport to support. But they may reject the values you hold, or have a different understanding of them.

    “Human rights” and equality are as much an invention of human beings as the boogey-man or fractional reserve banking. They have no foundation other than the fact that we have willed them into being.

    You’re attempting to put opposition to gay marriage on a par with such stupidities as creationism.

    Attempting to science-ize your value judgments just devalues science. And it doesn’t change any of the bad guys’ minds, which should be the point.

    Comment by dave — December 19, 2008 @ 2:10 pm

  11. [...] John Hodgman sums it up beautifully as he always does: [...]

    Pingback by The Warren insanity at Pensieri di un lunatico minore — December 19, 2008 @ 2:11 pm

  12. I’m extremely grateful for Fred Z.’s comment here – I am sorely disappointed that Obama didn’t jump up on November 5th and yell “Surprise, I really support gay marriage! Tricked you, and now I’m the president – Hoo Ha!”

    On the other hand, I was, and am, excited about having someone in office who understands the gravity of representing a diverse nation. Even if I might tend to lump the pro-prop8ers in with cavemen, hillbillies and mouth-breathers, they do make up a significant portion of our nation. It’s painful for me to feel as averse to Rick Warren’s presence as I do. Maybe I don’t really want Obama to reach out to everyone. Maybe I really want him to reach out to everyone I agree with. Maybe I need to work more on believing what I claim to believe, that is that shutting out the other side makes things like the Bush Administration possible. :(

    Comment by Chris W. — December 19, 2008 @ 2:14 pm

  13. Also, I agree with Fred Z.

    The analogy to having him sing at your wedding is false. The inauguration is America’s ceremony, not Obama’s, and not one just for people who voted for Obama.

    There are lots and lots of evangelicals. There are more people opposed to gay marriage than there are gays. I think they’re wrong, but if Obama is to be an effective leader he has to reach out to them.

    You don’t get to tell millions and millions of people that their ideas “don’t belong in our society.” That makes no sense. Our society is partly composed of those people. The very principles which demand that we recognize equal rights for gays demand that we don’t write off the millions of Americans who do not believe in equal rights for gays.

    Comment by dave — December 19, 2008 @ 2:31 pm

  14. Actually, I think he’s considered “moderate” solely because he spoke at TED. Warren is tolerated by the “elites” because he packages himself as all New Age and pretty and shiny. But really he just has a chewy crap center of hate and intolerance.

    Comment by Mike Caprio — December 19, 2008 @ 2:32 pm

  15. Obama should ask himself whether he would allow Rick Warren’s presence if Warren said these things about black people instead of gay people and atheists.

    Comment by LKM — December 19, 2008 @ 2:36 pm

  16. dave – you’re right, no one should be telling other people that their ideas aren’t part of society. That’s why it would be so great if the evangelicals would stop trying to shove their ideas down everyone’s throat by legislating their religious beliefs to force everyone to follow their moral code…

    Comment by Mike Caprio — December 19, 2008 @ 2:37 pm

  17. I think LKM’s point is well-made, but we must remember that the civil rights movement didn’t get as far as it did by pretending that bigots didn’t exist.

    I’m crossing my fingers that this willingness to listen to all sides extends to a willingness to hear the voices of the millions of people advocating for gay rights.

    Comment by Chris W. — December 19, 2008 @ 2:48 pm

  18. I think I would have been more willing to overlook Warren’s positions on a multitude of issues if I were not still reeling over the passage of Prop 8 in California. I think I would have crinkled my nose, then decided to swallow the inclusiveness eggnog even though it smelled bad.

    But in the wake of that historic and shameful blow, not only to the gay community, but to all of us who cherish fairness and human rights, I just can’t. This man played a large role in making this travesty a reality. Now, while we are still gasping for air after that shot to the gut, President-elect Obama comes in with the sucker punch.

    Look, I know Obama isn’t, and won’t ever be, as liberal as I want him to be. I accept it. I live in the real world. But you don’t kick your friends when they are down. And you don’t hand the guy kicking them a microphone.

    Comment by Christine — December 19, 2008 @ 3:05 pm

  19. “I think LKM’s point is well-made, but we must remember that the civil rights movement didn’t get as far as it did by pretending that bigots didn’t exist.”

    Yeah, but they also didn’t get there by having George Wallace give the introduction before the “I Have a Dream” speech, either. There’s a difference between acknowledging someone–even being willing to reasonably discuss things with them–and giving them pride of place.

    Comment by Tim — December 19, 2008 @ 3:26 pm

  20. FREE On-Demand TV Shows, Movies, Music(over 6 million digital quality tracks), Unlimited Games, Money, and FREE College Educations (Stanford, Oxford, Notre Dame and more) @ InternetSurfShack.com 

    Comment by G — December 19, 2008 @ 3:43 pm

  21. @ Comment #20:

    Thank you, G, for bringing some reason to this discussion.

    That is all.

    Comment by hodg-man — December 19, 2008 @ 4:00 pm

  22. Sure, I’m a little disappointed that Obama would pick Rick Warren, but I’m neither shocked nor appalled like many people, especially considering that Obama previously went to Rick Warren’s church and agreed to be questioned by him with McCain. It’s politics, and I understand that, and if it helps him get some things accomplished once he’s actually in the White House by convincing people that he’s willing to play ball and not a secret terrorist, then I can accept it.

    My question is this: WHY is there an invocation AT ALL? It’s the inauguration, and the point of the whole event is supposed to be that he is pledging, in front of all Americans, to defend and uphold the Constitution of the United States, a document that is supposed to be our highest authority and separate from whatever religious law people think there might be. It would be like a priest coming out of the seminary and having an accountant from the IRS stand next to him and say a few words about good government. Rick Warren is going to get up there and in an indirect way tell all Americans – including atheists, buddhists, muslims, and hindus – that as much as we like our “laws” and “reason” and “rule by majority,” that everything is effectively a human construct allowed by Jesus until he comes in judgement of us, so while we think we elected Barack Obama, it was god who ordained it to happen and Barack can only govern with god’s permission.

    Too much? Maybe, but there’s no reason for it. And if the argument is that we’re a religious nation and many Americans believe in Rick Warren’s beliefs, then why don’t they also invite a Rabbi and some other religious leaders up there…and why not the weird voodoo priest that blessed Sarah Palin? It’s insulting to me as an American, and it’s dangerous to give in to people who honestly believe that there is a spiritual law above ours, dictated to random people over the centuries and compiled into a book by other random people with agendas and that all of our laws should be made to match the bible or that they can ignore the law.

    Comment by Chris Fredda — December 19, 2008 @ 4:41 pm

  23. Thank you for this terrific post. I think you and your readers might also be interested in Plaid Adder’s post on the subject. Money quote:

    “Obama’s justification for Warren’s invitation during his recent press conference keeps mentioning his ‘views’ on homosexuality. He keeps going back to the language of ‘viewpoint,’ ‘opinion,’ ‘diversity,’ ‘disagreement,’ and so on. And this is what sets me off and will no doubt have set off a lot of Obama’s GBLT supporters: his language indicates that he believes (or wishes people to think he believes) that homophobia is not hatred or bigotry, but a legitimate ‘point of view.’ This is one of the biggest obstacles that GBLT Americans still face in their fight for equal rights. A person who states that non-whites are inferior to and not deserving of the same rights and privileges as white people is not treated as someone expressing a ‘view’ or an ‘opinion;’ he is treated as a bigot whose prejudice renders his ‘perspective’ on this topic (and pretty much anything else) invalid and indefensible.”

    (And to anyone who thinks that Rick Warren honestly believes the queers are just peachy as long as we stay away from the magical word “marriage”: There may be a small inconsistency in this argument.)

    Comment by Sylvia — December 19, 2008 @ 5:50 pm

  24. Personally, I believe the government needs to remove all reference to the word “marriage” in legal documents. Instead all governmentally recognized unions should be referred to as civil unions. “Marriage” has too many religious connotations which lead the evangelicals to think they own the word and can define the institution. Give the religious bigots their word, but give the rights, benefits, protections and responsibilities to all without discrimination.

    As far as the choice of Warren, I see why Obama did it. I also understand the anger from those on the left. Personally I wouldn’t have done what Obama did, but maybe that just shows that Obama is a bit more open and accepting than me.

    Comment by John J. — December 19, 2008 @ 6:33 pm

  25. Oh, I just wanted to say Merry Christmas and remind you that the good guys always win, even in the Aughties.

    Comment by El Payo — December 19, 2008 @ 8:35 pm

  26. Gawd Damn I love MegaForce

    Comment by Mike S. — December 20, 2008 @ 8:43 am

  27. This situation is quite a conundrum. What if Obama were to have chosen a big time left-winger instead of Rick Warren? What would be saying then? I’m sure in some places, people would be having conversations of a similar nature in the evangelical sector. Is there a middle ground to this issue? To be honest, I’m really not sure.

    Maybe we all need to practice what we preach: Open-mindedness

    The gay/lesbian community has been a champion of equality since the dawn of time and now it’s our turn to show conservatives what that is all about.

    Comment by ryan f — December 20, 2008 @ 10:14 am

  28. @22 Chris Fredda is right. The US routinely ignores the establishment clause of Amendment 1. So sad.

    Comment by Fred C. — December 20, 2008 @ 12:16 pm

  29. What makes someone a moderate is the existence of others in his or her field whose stated policy preferences can be plausibly argued to differ in some linear way from the stated policy preferences of the someone.

    Here is someone who deplores Rick Warren’s “complete betrayal of Jesus Christ”: http://snurl.com/8xfhc.

    Comment by T L Holaday — December 20, 2008 @ 12:49 pm

  30. This may not be a popular thing for left-leaning person such as my self to say, but Rick Warren is my kind of Christian. I don’t agree with all of the man’s beliefs (chances are I don’t agree with all of the beliefs of anybody who posted here), but there is little doubting his sincerity. He seems willing to engage in dialogue and you cannot accuse the man of being a right wing bigot.

    Gay marriage is a tricky thing. I know a lot of people hold the view that it is a black and white civil rights issue, but Warren and those who share his beliefs have a legitimate (if debatable) point when they call marriage a hetrosexual social institution. They may not be right, but their view seems to be held by the majority of Americans. It’s valid and worthy of an honest debate that doesn’t require either side to demonize the other.

    Here in Canada (I’m a Canadian) we’ve settled on a fairly nice compromise on the Gay Marriage issue; civil gay marriage is legal, but churches cannot be legally compelled to perform or recognize them in order to protect freedom of religion. It seems to work and has been more or less accepted by everybody. Perhaps it would be a good compromise for our southern neighbors as well.

    Comment by Andrew — December 20, 2008 @ 1:56 pm

  31. [...] choice has inflamed both the secular and LGBT community on the web including Andrew Sullivan and John Hodgman. I too had a serious WTF!? moment when I saw the [...]

    Pingback by ComingAnarchy.com » Blog Archive » The prince and the pastor — December 20, 2008 @ 3:30 pm

  32. Here in Canada (I’m a Canadian) we’ve settled on a fairly nice compromise on the Gay Marriage issue; civil gay marriage is legal, but churches cannot be legally compelled to perform or recognize them in order to protect freedom of religion. It seems to work and has been more or less accepted by everybody. Perhaps it would be a good compromise for our southern neighbors as well.

    Andrew, that’s exactly what we American proponents of gay marriage want. Nobody is advocating that the state make churches perform marriages in opposition to the tenets of their faith–that would violate the First Amendment.

    Comment by Sylvia — December 20, 2008 @ 4:08 pm

  33. If being immature, lacking character and wanting multiple sex partners is “gay”, then I know way more gay people than I thought I did. In fact it describes me and almost everyone I know after two drinks.

    Comment by Rumplestiltskin — December 20, 2008 @ 10:45 pm

  34. Awww, yeah. The Hodge droppin’ the Megaforce on us. Isn’t that what we all need right about now?

    But for the topic at hand, thank you for the eloquent wakeup call. The O-man needs to clarify things a touch. But, unfortunately, maybe he has already.

    Comment by Kevbo — December 21, 2008 @ 2:48 am

  35. When Obama announced that he’d tapped Warren–figuratively–I was actually somewhat ambivalent. (I’m not a fan of religion, but I’m a pragmatist, and I understand you have to have a prayer at shindigs like that, or America will call you names.) Thanks for helping to change my mind: I am not exactly Yosemite-Sam-rootin-tootin mad about the whole kerfluffle, but it is definitely a mark against Obama in my book. In ink. Please come back to New Orleans so I can offer my thanks in cocktail form. Bring Sarah.

    Comment by Richard — December 21, 2008 @ 9:39 am

  36. More serious second thoughts –
    While I find Rick Warren’s ideas odious and his “hip” goatee repugnant, there is a significant political and social benefit in having him at the inauguration in terms of uniting what is a deeply divided country and rallying the greatest number of Americans around the new President. Does this mean that gays and lesbians are being left out for political convenience? I would argue no, but that Obama needs to build on the goodwill around his election rather than piss it away (like Bush did after 9/11). There are lots of crazy people who think that Obama is a secret muslim terrorist-lover, and having Rick Warren there helps dispel that.
    I know that justice delayed is justice denied, but sometimes you have to move incrementally to achieve these things. The Clintons blew it on Health Care in the 90s when they moved aggressively to implement reforms, and while Canada has equal marriage across the country, the issue was crippling for the centrist Liberal party and helped galvanize the religious right in this country, helping to deliver Conservative governments here. (BOO!)
    I support equal marriage, but you need to be smart about the way you bring it about – so that you can keep democrats in power who will bring it about, rather than handing the next set of elections back to the Republicans, who will bring in Constitutional bans on it.
    My 2 hobo nickels.
    And to everyone else on the forum: enjoy Festivus!

    Comment by Rumplestiltskin — December 21, 2008 @ 12:40 pm

  37. Mr. Hodgman – I apologize for going off-topic here and for the direct nature of this request but – if you could find any small way possible to mention St. Jude’s (or any of the wonderful children’s hospitals) this holiday season, you would do a world of good given your obvious reach.

    http://www.tg.stjude.org/

    Again, I apologize for the off-topic and decidedly unfunny comment!

    Happy holidays to you.

    T…

    Comment by Trelvix — December 21, 2008 @ 1:46 pm

  38. [...] John Hodgman’s view on the issue is worth reading December 21, 2008   Tags: [...]

    Pingback by Rick Warren’s Arguments &#8212 Matt’s Waste of Your Time — December 21, 2008 @ 5:52 pm

  39. they say a pessimist is never disappointed. this is patently untrue. there is nothing i hate more than having my cynicism validated.

    oh, ‘bama….

    Comment by three08 — December 22, 2008 @ 1:33 pm

  40. “[i]governmental[/i] special status known as “marriage.””

    The problem lies with the word governmental. I believe Obama has no problem with gay folks having the governmental status of marriage. Unfortunately, the SAME word is used for a special religious status too. And even more unfortunately, the word’s historical roots lie in the religious domain. So when the government tries to change the rights of admission to the “governmental status”, due to common wording, the ignorant amongst the religious believe that the government is somehow changing the meaning of the religious word “marriage”. This is then looked upon as state dictating to church unfairly and is attacked strongly.

    The obvious solution is to correct the historical mistake, and have the government use a word besides marriage for both homosexual and heterosexual unions. The word marriage should not exist in the governmental lexicon. That will solve the divide since it will clarify that the government is not changing anyone’s (gay or otherwise) religious status, but rather only their status wrt to the government.

    If you think Obama picked Warren for anything less than nuanced political reasons, then I think you are ignoring history. He is entering office with a significant portion of the nation believing he is the anti-christ. Amongst the first important decisions he will be forced to make (thank you W) is to repeal a ridiculously bad healthcare decision which steals pretty much all patient rights and comes into effect the day he enters office, which unfortunately is adored by a large portion of the christian population. Under these circumstances any steps he takes to increase his appeal amongst this constituency is absolutely necessary. And he has chosen to take an extremely symbolic, but practically meaningless step in this direction.

    Comment by addicted — December 22, 2008 @ 2:51 pm

  41. Andrew (#30): As Sylvia (#32) pointed out, that’s exactly what we have here in Massachusetts. Of course, many of the protesters had signs saying “NO TO GAY MARRIAGE – NO TO GAY CIVIL UNIONS”, making it quite clear that “changing the definition” wasn’t their real reason for opposition.

    A simple counter to the “but they’ll force churches to perform gay weddings” argument: when was the last time a Catholic church was required by law to perform a marriage involving someone who’s divorced? If they couldn’t say no, would anyone care about annulments?

    Comment by ckd — December 22, 2008 @ 3:10 pm

  42. I just did a quick check on the generally understood definition of “marriage.” Here’s what I found:

    “the social institution under which a man and woman establish their decision to live as husband and wife by legal commitments, religious ceremonies, etc.”

    So, some in the homosexual community want same sex “marriage” which redefines the generally accepted understanding of marriage. And then they wonder why that bothers people who prefer the original, time honored definition, whether traditional, religious, or legal.

    I fail to see how Obama’s selection of Rick Warren for the inaugural invocation is a choice worthy of such vitriolic response. Assume for a moment that Obama chose a homosexual minister for the task. Would that appease the homosexual community? But what of the heterosexual community? Would they not feel betrayed by Obama, incensed at his choice? Is there a “middle ground” decision that Obama could make? Probably not without alienating someone somewhere.

    One thing that I notice that both sides of this debate fail to see is that life is full of choices and consequences. In many cases, someone else’s choice causes consequences for us as individuals. In other cases, a choice is just a choice. Deal with it. Live with it. You may not like it but the choice is not yours to make.

    Comment by Ronald McElfresh — December 22, 2008 @ 3:12 pm

  43. [...] -John Hodgman, via John Gruber. [...]

    Pingback by Quote of the Day - ronbailey.us — December 22, 2008 @ 3:19 pm

  44. Wow. Disappointing to hear this coming from you Mr. Hodgman considering all the evidence to the contrary that gay marriages will have an ill-effect on this country in the long run. Very disappointing.

    Comment by James McMichael — December 22, 2008 @ 3:48 pm

  45. For all of your logic and reasoning, I continue to find so-called openminded “progressives” such Bible-thumping hatemongers.. Oh sure, we will stand up for logic and reason for two people, or two people of your preference… But if two or more people, related or not, would like to get married… Oh no no no… We can’t allow that! That’s “icky” and makes us uncomfortable.

    You fscking hypocrites… You’re no better than the Bible-thumping anti-gay marriage people you claim to be against. You’re so open minded…. In your own closed minds

    Comment by the other Steve jobs — December 22, 2008 @ 3:52 pm

  46. The fundamental problem here is no rational reason for government to have any say about anything with respect to marriage.

    Marriage should simply be a function of religion. The state should be blind to marriage.

    The state should not recognize anyone as married or not. There should be no laws regarding marriage. There should be no special tax consideration based on marriage. No government entity should be permitted to even inquire as to your marital state.

    Any marriage law is a religious law. Therefore, there should be no law regarding marriage. None, whatsoever.

    Comment by Afan — December 22, 2008 @ 3:55 pm

  47. James McMichael (#44): ah yes, the utter desolation that once was Massachusetts is a reminder we should all heed of the horrible fate that would await us if same-sex couples could marry. Why, we might wind up with one of the lowest divorce rates in the country!

    Comment by ckd — December 22, 2008 @ 3:55 pm

  48. @other Steve jobs:

    You’re also a hypocrite, by definition. You see, if you were as open-minded as you profess, you would be accepting of closed-minded folks and all the liberal-chic folks who are closed-minded yet think they are open-minded.

    In other words, a truly open minded person (if such even exists) is moot: accepting of everyone and everything, and without a stance on any issue whatsoever.

    Comment by Afan — December 22, 2008 @ 4:00 pm

  49. @ckd at #47: Don’t forget the Mad Max-esque wasteland that gay marriage has made of the other countries that recognize it. (Now that I think of it, Canada was plunged into a constitutional crisis a mere five and a half years after its provinces began, one by one, to fall to the homosexual agenda. COINCIDENCE? [1]

    [1] Yes.)

    Comment by Sylvia — December 22, 2008 @ 4:15 pm

  50. “Change does not roll in on the wheels of inevitability, but comes through continuous struggle. And so we must straighten our backs and work for our freedom. A man can’t ride you unless your back is bent.”

    Martin Luther King

    Comment by Joey — December 22, 2008 @ 4:15 pm

  51. afan…

    Nice unrelated tangent to attempt to make yourself feel better about being as guilty of hate and intolerance as any Rick Warren follower could ever hope to be.

    Folks like John and Obama and others supportilng gay marriage for their logical and rational reasons turn a hostile eye when they are “grossed” out, and they need to be called to task for their opression of plural and intra-family marriage… Period.

    Being snarky and full of bullshit doesn’t make you sound smart when it’s done to … Ohhh shiny thing!

    Comment by the other Steve jobs — December 22, 2008 @ 4:21 pm

  52. John,

    I used to support gay marriage, for the reasons you support gay marriage, but as I learned more about the issue, I came to a different conclusion.

    First of all, marriage isn’t simply about personal choice. It is largely about forgoing the ability to make choices down the road, in the name of the greater good.

    Second, the dynamics of a heterosexual family are far different than the dynamics of one centered on a homosexual union. Genetically, a heterosexual marriage balances male genetic interests (the need for paternal certainty, etc.) vs. female genetic interests (the need for security, etc.) This is why men still prefer to marry women who aren’t promiscuous and place an emphasis on youth and beauty, and this is why women still prefer to marry men who are taller and socially successful. Marriage, when it is a social institution and not just another personal choice, balances these interests and increases the probability of a stable, harmonious bond forming, one that benefits children and (in many cultures) the elderly.

    In a homosexual union, these genetic dynamics are simply not there in that form. Thus ‘gay marriage’ means something entirely, and changes marriage into something based purely on choice/whims, thus destabilizing marriage overall.

    Lastly, if you really believe in equality, then why not allow anyone to form a marriage with anyone, so long as there’s little chance of genetically damaged children? For example, I take care of my disabled grandmother. Our relationship is non-sexual but very loving. Why shouldn’t I be able to marry her and claim benefits, like her pension, etc.? What about two brothers who live together, love one another, and have a complementary relationship (one works, the other stays home and takes care of family)? Why should they be denied benefits just because their relationship is non-sexual? Why discriminate against polygamous marriages, when they are entirely consensual? A lot of women prefer to share a well-off man than have a bum all to themselves, as our culture clearly shows.

    There is no meaningful difference between a black person and white person, but there is a very meaningful difference between a heterosexual and a homosexual marriage. To believe so may make you feel enlightened, but if you think about it, it’s just rather naive.

    Comment by Abe Quilliam — December 22, 2008 @ 4:37 pm

  53. [...] 22, 2008 in Culture, Politics After reading this, this, and this from John Hodgman, I felt motivated to write a [...]

    Pingback by Obama, Warren, and Vader « ryancerbus.com — December 22, 2008 @ 4:40 pm

  54. [...] Hodgman talks about Obama and Warren: THOSE OF US, however, who foolishly refused to take Obama at his word when he told us he didn’t [...]

    Pingback by I am Matt Thomas » Hodgman on Warren — December 22, 2008 @ 4:49 pm

  55. @Abe: I agree with you 100%. Why stop at gay marriage? Why can’t a person ‘marry’ someone with whom they have a loving relationship? If marriage is simply a “governmental special status” (as John puts it), why send a person to prison for polygamy (outside of a religious context?

    @John H.: Marriage is not a governmental special status- it’s a religious concept, with traditions thousands of years old. It’s in many religions (in one form or another) all over the world.

    Comment by Troy — December 22, 2008 @ 5:33 pm

  56. Without even considering the ugly positions he takes, Warren’s habit of brazenly crossing the line between church and state is quite troubling by itself.

    And while Obama’s entitled to invite whomever he chooses in this capacity, the idea of picking “the least bad” rather than “the greatest good,” seems an unlikely harbinger of the change we hoped for.

    Comment by joely — December 22, 2008 @ 5:48 pm

  57. - “Change does not roll in on the wheels of inevitability, but comes through continuous struggle. And so we must straighten our backs and work for our freedom. A man can’t ride you unless your back is bent.”
    - Martin Luther King
    But what if he were to sit on your shoulders?

    Comment by David — December 22, 2008 @ 6:17 pm

  58. One factor about Prop. 8 I haven’t seen mentioned here is that, if it’s allowed to stand, it will establish the precedent that a state constitution can be altered with a simple majority vote on a ballot proposition. What fun! Just imagine the train wreck that would follow. . . .

    Comment by Dave Bryant — December 22, 2008 @ 6:17 pm

  59. “But it is certainly not “demonstrably” wrong or “logically absurd.” It is, at best, inconsistent with other values people who oppose it purport to support. But they may reject the values you hold, or have a different understanding of them.”

    That’s why he said: “but because opposition to gay marriage has no logical foundation in a civil society that is premised on equality.”

    Captcha: plumbers Lieut.

    Comment by Simon — December 22, 2008 @ 6:31 pm

  60. What’s the difference between “marriage” and “civil unions” and why aren’t civil unions sufficient?

    Comment by anon — December 22, 2008 @ 6:32 pm

  61. Question: If I say I do like homosexuals I am labeled as a Homophobe. I am told that they are born that way, that they don’t have a choice.

    If I do not like Murders does that make me a Murderphobe? We defend in them in courts by saying they were born that way? They didn’t have a choice?

    If I don’t like Pedophiles does that make me a Pediphobe? We defend them that they were born that way? They couldn’t possible have a choice right?

    Everyday we make choices, should I eat? Should I pay my bills? Should help that person who fell. We make our choices based on right and wrong. Moral versus immoral. We always have a choice, although we may not like the other choice, we always have the choice. God made that available to us.

    America was founded on Christian principles by men and women of faith. Yes they wanted some separation from oppressive countries and rules that they had come from (England and France and the Church) but we still based Americas foundation on the beliefs of Christian faith.

    Mainstream media is the main driving force behind the anti Christian movement in Our Country. They force the agenda on this Country and when the people say they don’t like the messages be forced feed they are labeled as the ones who are in the wrong,

    Our Country was created by the people for the people. We setup our legal system to represent that motto. We call it Democracy. When “The People” make their voices heard and then Our Legal system does not respect “The Peoples” choice then that is where the breakdown begins. We have to ask ourselves why should we respect Our System if it doesn’t respect The People.

    Californians have voted twice on this issue and the state has made changes twice on its own to clarify the law and yet the 9th Circuit Court (who has the most liberal record in history) has decided that they will make whatever decisions they want not based on Our State Constitution but there own agenda. This is not how a Government for The People By The People can successfully operate.

    We can not expect The People the respect our Government when our Government doesn’t respect The People.

    Comment by S — December 22, 2008 @ 7:17 pm

  62. [...] For the second, I’ll let “PC Guy” and frequent Daily Show performer John Hodgeman … I HAVE CONFIDENCE that, in no short order, Prop 8 will be repealed, and the gay marriage debate will look as absurd at the miscegenation debates of the 20th century do now. I have confidence this will happen not because it is merely right, or because the electorate will suddenly love gayness, but because opposition to gay marriage has no logical foundation in a civil society that is premised on equality. [...]

    Pingback by Michael Krumbein — December 22, 2008 @ 10:42 pm

  63. @61: First of all, democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for lunch. This country is a republic, not a democracy. One of the purposes of the courts is to guard against the “tyranny of the majority,” as the sheep knows well. Brown vs. Board of Education was an exceedingly unpopular decision, yet the Constitutional guarantees of equality under the law trumped the voters wishes in Alabama. Should the court have ratified “…segregation today, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever…” because that’s what the public wanted?

    Here in California, a statewide election in the 1960s repealed fair housing laws. The state Supreme Court overturned the will of the voters because it conflicted with constitutional guarantees. Should the court have affirmed housing discrimination because that’s what the people voted for? California’s courts were also the first in the nation to overturn traditional value of an interracial marriage ban. Should the court have affirmed the ban because that’s what the people wanted? If you answered “yes” to these, then aside from questioning your morality I’d ask you this: what is the purpose of a court if it exists only to be a rubber stamp?

    Moving on. Let’s see… murder: the initiation of force against someone else. Pedophilia: the initiation of force against someone else. Gay marriage: uhhh, no force involved. Your analogy is as far from valid as east is from west.

    Founding Fathers: if Christianity was so important to them, why was Jesus not prominently invoked in the founding documents of this country? Why was Jesus not invoked in the Federalist Papers? Oh, sure, there are bland references to “The Creator,” but that would work for Vishnu or Ahura Mazda as well as for Hey-zoos.

    Lastly, what the fsck dos the 9th Circuit Court have to do with anything??? This is a STATE matter decided by a STATE court. Methinks you’re so blinded by ideology you’re seeing ghosts.

    Comment by Mark — December 23, 2008 @ 1:10 am

  64. @myself in 63: Brown v Board of Education was in Kansas. George Wallace (”Segregation today…”) was Alabama.

    My proofreading department has now been fired.

    Comment by Mark — December 23, 2008 @ 1:24 am

  65. “…a civil society that is premised on equality” ? HaHaHaHaHa!!! Where are YOU living?

    Comment by stormwatch — December 23, 2008 @ 9:12 am

  66. I can’t wait until the sex oriented lifestyle of gay marriage is legalized throughout this country. Then I am going to sit on the sidelines and giggle as the next wave of sex oriented lifestyle hits the country. What lifestyle is that you ask? Why when the definition of marriage is once again altered to be defined as “two beings.” What does that mean? Glad you asked. Well…once “beings” is used, then we can have people marrying barnyard beings. After all, it is logical. Many people love their furry being more than they love any homo sapiens being. And I dare any of you to argue against it. It would be…err…illogical.

    Comment by J. Scott Anderson — December 23, 2008 @ 9:34 am

  67. [...] John Hodgman’s blog [...]

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  68. @41: This US citizen and Catholic simultaneously *opposes* bans on civil marriage among consenting adults and supports the Church’s centuries’ old *exclusion* of gays from sacramental marriage.
    @66: Last time I checked, no civil laws in the USA defined animals as possessing the ability to give consent. Invoking bestiality was a tactic used by the mid-20th Century opposition to interracial marriage: if we let whites and blacks marry, it’ll degenerate to sex between people and apes. That tactic failed then, but maybe you’ll succeed this time.

    Comment by Walter Dufresne — December 23, 2008 @ 10:27 am

  69. I feel that the bulk of these comments are being made out of ignorance. Specifically, Abe’s argument that homosexual relationships are somehow emotionally unbalanced. I don’t think relying on gender stereotypes from the 50’s is going to get us anywhere on the topic of gay marriage. The gay community is fully aware of its image problems regarding being overtly-sexual and is actively trying to settle down on that, but I think if homosexuality were to become more mainstream then there would be less of a show of it.

    I feel that the great bulk of anti-equality commenters here are simply ignorant to the loving, supportive, and by all means “normal” gay families that exist in the majority. Don’t let your opinion be persuaded by the loud and proud niches of our community, look deeper than that and you’ll see we’re really just normal people wanting the same things as straight couples.

    I find it kind of funny that there are claims of mainstream media pushing an anti-christian agenda when I know that the gay community feels like its being portrayed as overly-sexual pervy sex-fiends. Does the TV ever portray any minority group fairly, all of the time?

    Comment by Max — December 23, 2008 @ 2:36 pm

  70. Quote: BOTH WARREN AND OBAMA believe in a fallacy: that one can support equal rights for “everybody” (Warren) and for gay folks specifically (Obama), and yet not support a gay person having the same access as a straight person to the governmental special status known as “marriage.”

    “Gay folks” have the exact same right to marriage as anyone else does. You are free to marry anyone you choose, as long as they are of the opposite gender. I have the same right. We are equal.

    And I agree with J. Scott Anderson; if we redefine marriage to be between any two people (despite gender), why not any three people, or four people, or an animal and a person, or a person and their sister, or daughter, or a dead person? In 100 years, will those just be “taboos” that we as a society have gotten past? Welcome to the slippery slope.

    Comment by MRM — December 23, 2008 @ 2:38 pm

  71. @60: Why aren’t civil unions sufficient? Because “Separate But Equal” has already been disproven. Either marriages are a state construct, in which heterosexual and homosexual marriages should be equals, or marriages are a religious construct, where there should be no privileges, tax brackets, or any other special considerations. You can’t have your cake and eat it, too.

    I’m not too shocked/upset about Obama’s decision, however, because as often as people forget, Obama is a human being. So he’s got some failings. This is one of them. Does this mean cutting our noses off to spite our face? No. But does this mean going along with it without disagreement? No. Such is how change happens.

    Comment by Blain — December 23, 2008 @ 3:42 pm

  72. [...] Good Evening [...]

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  73. Much of the problem boils down to the ambiguity as to what homosexuality is. Is it a choice or a natural phenomena?

    It seems to be both. There are, for example, plenty of bisexuals. ( I don’t, for example, think that Lindsay Lohan was born homosexual. What if she decides to marry Sam Ronson? )

    And yet, there are plenty of people that seem to clearly have been born homosexual.

    On the other hand, LGBT scholarship has tried to change gender identity into an individual ‘choice’, not something dictated by genes or society.

    Is it possible to have a relationship that respects the ‘institution’ of marriage when it’s based on an individualistic choice? Is that not shakier ground than restricting it to the dictates of the genes for 90% of the population (with, let’s say, 10% being naturally occurring homosexuals)?

    On the contrary, I personally know two female friends that have a wonderful, loving marriage, but both were born heterosexual, never identified as bisexual, and “switched” after they met each other, and “chose” a homosexual identity for themselves since wanted to be together. This is a case that is exactly what I believe religious folks fear – the arbitrariness of gender roles and sexual identity, yet the result STILL reinforced the institution of marriage, in this case. You could argue that this demonstrates that it’s hard enough to want to spend your life with someone else, regardless of gender role, sexual identity, etc., so why discriminate?

    Calling religious folks “bigots” does not help matters. Let’s say I disagree with a life choice you’ve made, say rampant promiscuity, and think that it threatens the cohesion of society. Is it “bigotry” to criticize that life choice? Is it “hate”?

    Given the context of homo/bi sexuality I’ve illustrated above – that in many cases, it may be naturally occuring, but in many others, it’s a “life choice”, how can you call disagreements against those choices “bigotry” or “hate mongering”? It’s much more complicated than that.

    The Catholic Church, for example, has no problems with recognizing that homosexuality may be a naturally occuring phenomena. Its problem is with any sexual act that has no involvement with pro-creation. That’s why masturbation and married sex with a condom are both sins. Homosexual acts can’t contribute to Motherhood or Fatherhood, so are considered disordered.

    In the end, I do wish people would move past these soundbites and get to the roots of the problem. Respecting the institution of marriage arguably has nothing to do with gender identity or sexual roles, it has to do with personal responsibility to one’s family. This is sorely lacking in plenty of heterosexual cases. (Promiscuity, and the complications it brings knows no bounds.) Religious folks aren’t bigots, and aren’t hate mongers – they seriously are concerned with changing a social institution that already is crumbling, and have serious preconceptions of what a homosexual or bisexual marriage might imply.

    Once we figure out how to rid ourselves of preconceptions, we might actually be able to figure out a way for religious folks (which make up MOST of the USA) to actually accept a (state recognized) marriage between same-sex partners, while protecting the institution from behaviour that undermines it and families.

    Comment by psvt — December 24, 2008 @ 11:56 am

  74. [...] Good Evening » EVERYTHING I HAVE TO SAY ABOUT RICK WARREN [...]

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  75. I don’t agree with you.

    Comment by Mark Carbone — December 25, 2008 @ 7:03 am

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  77. @61

    “Mainstream media is the main driving force behind the anti Christian movement in Our Country. They force the agenda on this Country and when the people say they don’t like the messages be forced feed they are labeled as the ones who are in the wrong.”

    Not for nothin, but I think you’re wrong about this. No one can make me feel anti-christian as fast or as thoroughly as christians themselves. A little more tolerance and kindness toward those whose choices are different from theirs would do more to change my opinion than any media campaign ever would.

    Just sayin.

    Comment by Christine — December 27, 2008 @ 9:31 pm

  78. Um…Is it me or do some of the commenters seem to have not actually read JH’s post much less are not likely to know his books or who he is?

    Did someone link to this so a handful of homophobes with too much time on their hands could seize on the opportunity to spout off on why they hate gay people so much that they shouldn’t have the same rights as non-gay folks?

    That so many opposed to gay marriage are discussing it here of all places confirms my suspicion (in my own mind) that Obama picked Warren to get some of the people who didn’t vote for him to dislike him slightly less.

    Comment by Tony Faulkner — December 28, 2008 @ 12:56 am

  79. Also I’m especially disappointed that more of you aren’t discussing Megaforce, myself included.

    Comment by Tony Faulkner — December 28, 2008 @ 1:03 am

  80. Good points.

    I think John Gruber made a good point too:

    “I’ll bet when we elect our first gay president, he doesn’t invite an avowed racist to deliver the invocation. “

    Comment by Mike — December 29, 2008 @ 9:55 am

  81. First, let me say that I despise the idea of ever inviting Rick Warren to ANY personal life event of my own. But may I point out that the inauguration is NOT a personal event? I was mad at first, but I had to think for a minute WHY such a brilliant man would make such an obviously controversial decision. His personal beliefs aside, I do not think this was a snap or casual decision. If he were trying to make a statement with this appointment, which he must have been trying to do, since he knew what a backlash it would recieve, then what would that statement be?

    Our government is supposed to represent the people. All of them. Lots of them are evangelicals. Sure, there are lots of evangelical pastors who are NOT raging bigots, but Rick Warren is fast overcoming Dobson as a leader of the evangelical movement. Inviting him to speak means that no one will be shut out of the government based on personal beliefs. I believe he is wrong, very very wrong. As an LGBT myself, I believe that he is beyond wrong. But this is not a personal appointment. It’s a bold move to say that Obama will not be catering to us bleeding heart liberals who elected him. There will be no prid quo pro.

    I am one of the majority of us who would love it if the government ruled the way *I* wanted. Don’t most people wish the government would reflect everything they personally agree with? Obama, I believe, is one of the few who don’t want a government to reflect what he wants, but what the country as a whole wants. He has proven in his appointment of many people who strongly disagree with him that he wishes to hear all arguments, and the best opposing argument, to any issue before making his decision. But also keep in mind, as he said, that the change comes from him. He has the last word. Appointing Hillary Clinton to Secretary of State does not mean she gets to make any decisions, but it proves that he will have an argument before his own wishes would be carried out.

    And so I take a stance of support for his choice, if only for the point that I think it makes– no one is going to be silenced in his administration, however ignorant they may be, if they reflect what some of the people want. They may not get their way, but they will have their say.

    He did not appoint Warren to a position where he can have any influence on gay rights, or influence on ANYthing, really. He invited him to make an invocation– a spiritual prayer. Give the evangelicals the prayer. I’d rather give them a prayer than a piece of legislation, wouldn’t you?

    Comment by Crystal — December 30, 2008 @ 2:46 pm

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  89. Obama wants to repeal DOMA. He calls the gay movement this generation’s civil rights movement. He supports letting states decide their own marriage laws. It doesn’t matter how Obama defines marriage.

    he got a 100 on a score gay score card accoding to this website

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  92. Part of the problem with this issue in general is that most people don’t actually realize that domestic partnerships and civil unions are NOT legally equal to marriage. They are missing over 1,000 rights that come automatically with a marriage license. It’s not a fight over semantics. And, oh yeah, and it’s not a “lifestyle,” it’s not a “choice,” and it has nothing to with pedophilia, incest, or bestiality. I wish I could ask Rick Warren what Jon Stewart asked Mike Huckabee recently: “Okay, so if being gay is a choice, when did you decide to be straight?”

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